[Docutils-users] Possibly Dumb RestructuredText Question

[Tim Daneliuk]

I've been using RST for some years with great success but I have a sort
of dumb question. In the old nroff/troff and even LaTeX days, there
were ways to define text aliases and reference them later in the
document. I want to be able to do something like this:

SHORTSTRING = ``my really`` **looooong** string

And then make reference to it later as in:


So, as you can see, SHORTSTRING is at least 20 chars long.

Even more, I'd like to be able to nest such definitions:

LONGERSTRING = I've described SHORTSTRING to demonstrate the principle.


Is any/all of this directly supported via RST/Docutils (I realize this can
be achieved with an m4 pass first but I'd rather avoid this if at all possible ...


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[Ben Finney]

Post by Tim Daneliuk
I've been using RST for some years with great success but I have a sort
of dumb question. In the old nroff/troff and even LaTeX days, there
were ways to define text aliases and reference them later in the
document.

reST has substitution directives, I think that'll do what you want
<URL:http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/directives.html#directives-for-substitution-definitions>.
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Pl

[Doug Hellmann]

Post by Tim Daneliuk
I've been using RST for some years with great success but I have a sort
of dumb question. In the old nroff/troff and even LaTeX days, there
were ways to define text aliases and reference them later in the
SHORTSTRING = ``my really`` **looooong** string
So, as you can see, SHORTSTRING is at least 20 chars long.
LONGERSTRING = I've described SHORTSTRING to demonstrate the principle.
Is any/all of this directly supported via RST/Docutils (I realize this can
be achieved with an m4 pass first but I'd rather avoid this if at all possible …

Have a look at “substitution definitions” and see if that does what you want.

http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/restructuredtext.html#substitution-definitions

Doug


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[Tim Daneliuk]

Post by Doug Hellmann

Post by Tim Daneliuk
I've been using RST for some years with great success but I have a sort
of dumb question. In the old nroff/troff and even LaTeX days, there
were ways to define text aliases and reference them later in the
SHORTSTRING = ``my really`` **looooong** string
So, as you can see, SHORTSTRING is at least 20 chars long.
LONGERSTRING = I've described SHORTSTRING to demonstrate the principle.
Is any/all of this directly supported via RST/Docutils (I realize this can
be achieved with an m4 pass first but I'd rather avoid this if at all possible …

Have a look at “substitution definitions” and see if that does what you want.
http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/restructuredtext.html#substitution-definitions
Doug

Yep, that's it. Thanks all ...
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[Virgil Arrington]

I'm a relative noob to ReStructuredText and I like it's plain text
method of work.

I've been using it on Gedit in Ubuntu Linux with the ReStructuredText
plugin. It works great on shorter documents. But some of my documents
are longer with ten or more section headings. I'd like to be able to
quickly jump from one section to the next, but I don't see any type of
navigator panel in Gedit geared to ReStructuredText headings.

I've read online about people writing whole books in ReStructuredText.
So, my question is, what editor are y'all using to get the job done?

WriteMonkey works great on the Windows side for Markdown as it has a
"jumps" panel to make navigating a long document fairly easy. But, I've
not seen anything similar for ReStructuredText.

Virgil

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[Ben Finney]

Post by Virgil Arrington
I've read online about people writing whole books in ReStructuredText.
So, my question is, what editor are y'all using to get the job done?

GNU Emacs has decent support for reStructuredText, so that satisfies my
needs even for quite large documents.
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_o__) you've already covered.” —anonymous |
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[Pete Jemian]

reST editor for use in eclipse
resteditor.sf.net

works where eclipse works
provides a section index, as you describe
"Normalize section markers" feature is a nice thing
does other nice stuff

Post by Virgil Arrington
...
So, my question is, what editor are y'all using to get the job done?
WriteMonkey works great on the Windows side for Markdown as it has a
"jumps" panel to make navigating a long document fairly easy. But, I've
not seen anything similar for ReStructuredText.
Virgil
...

--
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Beam line Controls and Data Acquisition, Group Leader
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[Peter Funk]

Post by Virgil Arrington
I'm a relative noob to ReStructuredText and I like it's plain text
method of work.
I've been using it on Gedit in Ubuntu Linux with the ReStructuredText
plugin. It works great on shorter documents. But some of my documents
are longer with ten or more section headings. I'd like to be able to
quickly jump from one section to the next, but I don't see any type of
navigator panel in Gedit geared to ReStructuredText headings.

I've hesitated to respond because I'm one of those greybeards
using VIM and therefore don't know much about Gedit and never tried
the reStructuredText plugin for it: http://kib2.alwaysdata.net/GEdit/

Post by Virgil Arrington
I've read online about people writing whole books in ReStructuredText.
So, my question is, what editor are y'all using to get the job done?

...

Recently I was surprised that (from my point of view ☺) young people
see merits in learning vim:

So you might consider it for a look.

Best Regards,
Peter Funk

[Virgil Arrington]

I've hesitated to respond because I'm one of those greybeards using
VIM and therefore don't know much about Gedit and never tried the
reStructuredText plugin for it: http://kib2.alwaysdata.net/GEdit/

I've downloaded both VIM and Emacs, and I must say they both look
impressive in their respective feature sets, and their users seem
fiercely loyal. But, in both cases, as soon as I try to start using
them, the learning curve hits me in the face. They are sooooo different
from anything else I've ever used. I'd really like to learn them (or one
of them), but right now, it's a little like tackling Greek.

Virgil

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[Ben Finney]

Post by Virgil Arrington
I've downloaded both VIM and Emacs, and I must say they both look
impressive in their respective feature sets, and their users seem
fiercely loyal.

That last point is a special benefit of the tool, to the person
considering what text editor to invest time in learning.

The text editor used by a “knowledge worker”, if that term applies, can
make a massive difference in how effective the person will be in their
work. Investing time in a mediocre tool quickly turns out to be wasted
time, even if the person doesn't know it for a long time.

A free-software text editor with a diverse, passionate community, who
have been using it over decades for a staggeringly wide variety of
useful purposes, is a sign that the text editor will continue to meet
its community's needs as those needs change into the future.

This is only possible if the text editor is licensed as free software
(i.e. granting software freedom to every recipient), so the passionate
community is empowered to maintain and extend and support it, without
any particular vendor being critical to its future.

The only text editors I know which are free software, cross-platform,
powerfully extensible, already adapted to countless editing tasks out of
the box, and many-decades mature with a passionate community, are Vim
and Emacs.

Post by Virgil Arrington
But, in both cases, as soon as I try to start using them, the learning
curve hits me in the face. They are sooooo different from anything
else I've ever used. I'd really like to learn them (or one of them),
but right now, it's a little like tackling Greek.

You're right, that is a cost of these tools. You need to judge when to
invest the effort needed to become proficient in one of those text
editors.

I can only say that what you learn of either of those tools will be
valuable for the rest of your keyboard-using career, and beginning
sooner will be better than beginning later.
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[Terry Brown]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 06:19:21 +1100

Post by Ben Finney
The only text editors I know which are free software, cross-platform,
powerfully extensible, already adapted to countless editing tasks out
of the box, and many-decades mature with a passionate community, are
Vim and Emacs.

I think you can say the same thing about http://leoeditor.com/ just not
to quite the same degree as Vim and Emacs. Leo is decades old (not the
current code-base though ;-), free software, cross-platform,
powerfully extensible, already adapted to countless editing tasks out
of the box, and has a passionate community. Leo is not as old, doesn't
have as large a community, and would have a shorter list of out of the
box editing tasks than Emacs / Vim, but if you want an extensible tool
you can live in and in particular if you use Python / PyQt, you'll
probably be able to extend it to your specific needs with a lower
learning curve than Emacs (which I used for years) or Vim, which I
haven't used.

And, to stay on topic :-) it has rst integration.

Cheers -Terry

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[Aahz]

Post by Terry Brown
On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 06:19:21 +1100

Post by Ben Finney
The only text editors I know which are free software, cross-platform,
powerfully extensible, already adapted to countless editing tasks out
of the box, and many-decades mature with a passionate community, are
Vim and Emacs.

I think you can say the same thing about http://leoeditor.com/ just not
to quite the same degree as Vim and Emacs. Leo is decades old (not the
current code-base though ;-), free software, cross-platform,
powerfully extensible, already adapted to countless editing tasks out
of the box, and has a passionate community. Leo is not as old, doesn't
have as large a community, and would have a shorter list of out of the
box editing tasks than Emacs / Vim, but if you want an extensible tool
you can live in and in particular if you use Python / PyQt, [...]

That last bit is exactly why I stick with vim -- my pinky hurts when I
use Emacs, and I'm still very much a command-line fanatic (I run Vim in
a terminal window).

The OP should consider whether requiring a GUI for editing is too
limiting.
--
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Member of the Groucho Marx Fan Club

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[Ben Finney]

Post by Aahz
That last bit is exactly why I stick with vim -- my pinky hurts when I
use Emacs, and I'm still very much a command-line fanatic (I run Vim
in a terminal window).

I can't imagine asking anyone to make heavy use of either of Vim nor
Emacs, without mapping the key directly next to the pinky finger's home
position – usually labelled “Caps Lock” – as a “Ctrl” key.

<URL:https://usevim.com/2014/11/12/caps/>
<URL:https://superuser.com/questions/1193/reassigning-the-caps-lock-key-on-windows-or-os-x>

If you're wanting to make heavy keyboard use of any Unix-style program,
you'll be pressing “Ctrl” quite a lot. Your pinky finger will thank you
for mapping that key to a more easily-accessible position.

I don't see that using Vim makes that any less true than for Emacs; they
both require use of a lot of key chords with the “Ctrl” key.

[Aahz]

Post by Ben Finney

Post by Aahz
That last bit is exactly why I stick with vim -- my pinky hurts when I
use Emacs, and I'm still very much a command-line fanatic (I run Vim
in a terminal window).

I can't imagine asking anyone to make heavy use of either of Vim nor
Emacs, without mapping the key directly next to the pinky finger's home
position -- usually labelled "Caps Lock" -- as a "Ctrl" key.

Been doing that for a couple of decades, ever since keyboards stopped
putting the CTRL key where God intended it.

Post by Ben Finney
If you're wanting to make heavy keyboard use of any Unix-style program,
you'll be pressing "Ctrl" quite a lot. Your pinky finger will thank you
for mapping that key to a more easily-accessible position.

Duh.

Post by Ben Finney
I don't see that using Vim makes that any less true than for Emacs; they
both require use of a lot of key chords with the "Ctrl" key.

vim requires fewer for editing and navigation. That's the joy of command
mode versus insert mode. Keep in mind that I initially made the decision
of vi versus emacs on an honest-to-goodness terminal (can't remember
whether it was actually a VT100 or something else), and another stellar
advantage of vi was that it consumed far fewer resources.
--
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Member of the Groucho Marx Fan Club

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[Peter Funk]

Post by Virgil Arrington

I've hesitated to respond because I'm one of those greybeards using
VIM and therefore don't know much about Gedit and never tried the
reStructuredText plugin for it: http://kib2.alwaysdata.net/GEdit/

I've downloaded both VIM and Emacs, and I must say they both look
impressive in their respective feature sets, and their users seem
fiercely loyal. But, in both cases, as soon as I try to start using
them, the learning curve hits me in the face. They are sooooo different
from anything else I've ever used. I'd really like to learn them (or one
of them), but right now, it's a little like tackling Greek.

I remember well: In 1983 or 1984 when I had to learn 'vi'
because it was the only visual editor available for Unix
in our University at that time I had similar feelings. ☺
Fortunately times have changed a lot since.

Did you know that both VIM and Emacs today also come with
a decent graphical user interface which can help you a lot as
training wheels on your first steps?

Since you mentioned gedit I assume you are using some flavor of Linux.
On several Linux distributions you have to install one or
more additional software packages to get the GUI command gvim:
For example either "vim-gtk" or "vim-gnome" on Ubuntu Linux.
The windows package however: ftp://ftp.vim.org/pub/vim/pc/gvim74.exe
already includes both the GUI and console versions.

Back to your original question: The Tools menu of gvim contains
a sub menu called: "Folding" which allows to collapse and expand
chapters, sections and subsections of large documents at will.

I'm pretty sure that the other text editors (Emacs, Leo) will provide
similar features. I've seen screenshots of Leo a while back which
looked pretty promising in this regard:
http://leoeditor.com/slides/leo-basics-step-by-step/slide-011.html

BTW: Thanks to this thread I've also learned something new about
Emacs: I remember times when one had to install a forked version
package called XEmacs to get the GUI for Emacs. As a vi user
I never noticed that this is no longer true. ☺

Best Regards,
Peter Funk

[Kevin Horn]

I really like SublimeText with the SublimeRstCompletion plugin:
https://github.com/mgaitan/sublime-rst-completion

The plugin has various completion functions, but also provides header
folding, header navigation, etc.

Post by Peter Funk

Post by Virgil Arrington

I've hesitated to respond because I'm one of those greybeards using
VIM and therefore don't know much about Gedit and never tried the
reStructuredText plugin for it: http://kib2.alwaysdata.net/GEdit/

I've downloaded both VIM and Emacs, and I must say they both look
impressive in their respective feature sets, and their users seem
fiercely loyal. But, in both cases, as soon as I try to start using
them, the learning curve hits me in the face. They are sooooo different
from anything else I've ever used. I'd really like to learn them (or one
of them), but right now, it's a little like tackling Greek.

I remember well: In 1983 or 1984 when I had to learn 'vi'
because it was the only visual editor available for Unix
in our University at that time I had similar feelings. ☺
Fortunately times have changed a lot since.
Did you know that both VIM and Emacs today also come with
a decent graphical user interface which can help you a lot as
training wheels on your first steps?
Since you mentioned gedit I assume you are using some flavor of Linux.
On several Linux distributions you have to install one or
For example either "vim-gtk" or "vim-gnome" on Ubuntu Linux.
The windows package however: ftp://ftp.vim.org/pub/vim/pc/gvim74.exe
already includes both the GUI and console versions.
Back to your original question: The Tools menu of gvim contains
a sub menu called: "Folding" which allows to collapse and expand
chapters, sections and subsections of large documents at will.
I'm pretty sure that the other text editors (Emacs, Leo) will provide
similar features. I've seen screenshots of Leo a while back which
http://leoeditor.com/slides/leo-basics-step-by-step/slide-011.html
BTW: Thanks to this thread I've also learned something new about
Emacs: I remember times when one had to install a forked version
package called XEmacs to get the GUI for Emacs. As a vi user
I never noticed that this is no longer true. ☺
Best Regards,
Peter Funk
--
Peter Funk, home: ✉Oldenburger Str.86, D-27777 Ganderkesee
mobile:[phone] phone:[phone] <http://www.artcom-gmbh.de/>
office: ArtCom GmbH, ✉Haferwende 2, D-28357 Bremen, Germany
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[Virgil Arrington]

Post by Peter Funk
Did you know that both VIM and Emacs today also come with
a decent graphical user interface which can help you a lot as
training wheels on your first steps?

Yes, both versions of VIM and Emacs that I have downloaded have that
feature and it is helpful.

Post by Peter Funk
Since you mentioned gedit I assume you are using some flavor of Linux.
Back to your original question: The Tools menu of gvim contains
a sub menu called: "Folding" which allows to collapse and expand
chapters, sections and subsections of large documents at will.

Yes, that's what I'm looking for. I've read about "folding" but never
understood the term. I've only seen it used in the VIM or Emacs world.

Post by Peter Funk
I'm pretty sure that the other text editors (Emacs, Leo) will provide
similar features.

I've been impressed with Geany. It has a separate panel showing section
headings. I also like the way you can create your own build commands for
different systems, such as LaTeX, MarkDown and ReStructuredText. I
imagine VIM and Emacs can do the same thing, but it'll be a while before
I can figure it out.

One thing I've noticed is that there are many different uses for these
programs. I'm sure many of you are programmers or web developers who
need the features in programs like VIM and Emacs. I just like writing
prose mostly for fun, or for various academic endeavors. In the past, my
writing was mainly printed out on paper. Now, more often than not, I'll
format it to my Kindle and never print out a hard copy. This is where I
like ReStructuredText.

Thanks to all for your suggestions. It's nice to know that there are
powerful options out there.

Virgil

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[Bernhard Grotz]

Hi,

Post by Virgil Arrington
I've downloaded both VIM and Emacs, and I must say they both look
impressive in their respective feature sets, and their users seem
fiercely loyal. But, in both cases, as soon as I try to start using
them, the learning curve hits me in the face. They are sooooo different
from anything else I've ever used. I'd really like to learn them (or one
of them), but right now, it's a little like tackling Greek.

One of the most important Vim-Plugins for writing Restructured Text may be
snipMate:

http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2540

With this plugin, you can define your own keyboard shortcuts in a way like this:

--------------------

snippet abbrev
template

Example:

snippet toc

.. toctree::
:maxdepth: 2

${1}

--------------------

In the example above, when you write "toc" and hit the tab-key (or whatever key
you choose as a trigger), the plugin replaces your input with the given template
and puts your cursor at the position ${1}. In this way, you can even have
LaTeX-Code-Completion within Restructured-Text-Files.

I don't know if Emacs also comes with such a feature.

Greetings,

Bernhard


P.S.: You can call "vimtutor" in a shell to learn the very basics of Vim.

P.P.S.: If you also have Vim-LaTeX-Suite installed, you can use <++> as further
jumping points inside of your templates. With a line like

imap <c-l> <PLUG>IMAP_JumpForward

in your Vim configuration file, you can jump to the next <++> mark by typing
``Ctrl l`` in insert mode. I use this quite often..

[Guenter Milde]

On 2014-12-11, Virgil Arrington wrote:
...

Post by Virgil Arrington
I've read online about people writing whole books in ReStructuredText.
So, my question is, what editor are y'all using to get the job done?

...

The `Docutils link list`__ has a section on editors.
(Most entries were already mentioned, except for JED, one more free
extensible text editor with rst support.)

Günter

__ http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/user/links.html#editors


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[Mantas]

I find Voom [1] (vim plugin) very useful for editing rst files with
many sections.

[1] http://vim-voom.github.io/

Post by Guenter Milde
...

Post by Virgil Arrington
I've read online about people writing whole books in ReStructuredText.
So, my question is, what editor are y'all using to get the job done?

...
The `Docutils link list`__ has a section on editors.
(Most entries were already mentioned, except for JED, one more free
extensible text editor with rst support.)
Günter
__ http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/user/links.html#editors
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[Virgil Arrington]

In the Docutils Quick Reference Guide, I find the following with respect
to footnotes.


Footnote references, like [5]_.
Note that footnotes may get
rearranged, e.g., to the bottom of
the "page".

.. [5] A numerical footnote. Note
there's no colon after the ``]``.


Does anyone know what determines where footnotes appear in the resulting
HTML file? I'm finding that, if I insert a footnote as shown in the
example, the footnote will appear in the resulting document right below
the paragraph containing the footnote reference. I prefer footnotes at
the end of the HTML document. To obtain this, I put the actual footnote
text at the end of the source code document. But, on a long document
with more than a few footnotes, I can lose track of my footnotes. If I
want to move footnotes around, finding the footnote text that links with
the footnote reference can be a challenge.

With MarkDown Extra, footnotes always appear at the end of the document
even if I put them right after the reference paragraph in the source
document.

So, what determines whether a footnote gets "rearranged, e.g., to the
bottom of the 'page'"?

For my browser, I'm using Mozilla Firefox on Ubuntu Linux.

Virgil

[David Goodger]

In the Docutils Quick Reference Guide, I find the following with respect to
footnotes.
Footnote references, like [5]_.
Note that footnotes may get
rearranged, e.g., to the bottom of
the "page".
.. [5] A numerical footnote. Note
there's no colon after the ``]``.
Does anyone know what determines where footnotes appear in the resulting
HTML file? I'm finding that, if I insert a footnote as shown in the example,
the footnote will appear in the resulting document right below the paragraph
containing the footnote reference. I prefer footnotes at the end of the HTML
document. To obtain this, I put the actual footnote text at the end of the
source code document. But, on a long document with more than a few
footnotes, I can lose track of my footnotes. If I want to move footnotes
around, finding the footnote text that links with the footnote reference can
be a challenge.
With MarkDown Extra, footnotes always appear at the end of the document even
if I put them right after the reference paragraph in the source document.
So, what determines whether a footnote gets "rearranged, e.g., to the bottom
of the 'page'"?

There is currently no functionality to do automatic rearranging in the
HTML writer (there may be in other writers). I intended to write a
"footnotes" directive that would "move all footnotes in the document
to this point", but never got around to it. It wouldn't be that
difficult to write; contributions are welcome.

If you have a lot of footnotes, I offer this workaround. Keep your
footnotes in a separate file, say "footnotes.txt". At the point in
your document where you want the footnotes to appear, use ".. include:
footnotes.txt". That's the best I can think of, right now.
--
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

For my browser, I'm using Mozilla Firefox on Ubuntu Linux.
Virgil

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[Virgil Arrington]

Post by David Goodger
There is currently no functionality to do automatic rearranging in the
HTML writer (there may be in other writers). I intended to write a
"footnotes" directive that would "move all footnotes in the document
to this point", but never got around to it. It wouldn't be that
difficult to write; contributions are welcome. If you have a lot of
footnotes, I offer this workaround. Keep your footnotes in a separate
file, say "footnotes.txt". At the point in your document where you
want the footnotes to appear, use ".. include: footnotes.txt". That's
the best I can think of, right now.

Thank you for the quick response.

Virgil

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[Eric Knibbe]

Post by Virgil Arrington
I've read online about people writing whole books in ReStructuredText.
So, my question is, what editor are y'all using to get the job done?

For anyone on Mac OS X, I wrote a reST language module for BBEdit or
TextWrangler. I wrote it to make editing this book <http://lassoguide.com>
much easier. Find it here: <http://ericfromcanada.bitbucket.org>
---
Eric3



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[Matěj Cepl]

But some of my documents are longer with ten or more section
headings. I'd like to be able to quickly jump from one section
to the next, but I don't see any type of navigator panel in
Gedit geared to ReStructuredText headings.

BTW, just to note that the screenshot on
https://github.com/bittner/gedit-reST-plugin sports a chapter
navigation panel.

Matěj

[Ben Finney]

But some of my documents are longer with ten or more section headings.
I'd like to be able to quickly jump from one section to the next, but
I don't see any type of navigator panel in Gedit geared to
ReStructuredText headings.

In Emacs's ‘rst-mode’, I have the usual bindings for ‘rst-forward-section’
and ‘rst-backward-section’.

I find Emacs a very good tool for editing reST documents.

[Guenter Milde]

Post by Ben Finney

But some of my documents are longer with ten or more section headings.
I'd like to be able to quickly jump from one section to the next, but
I don't see any type of navigator panel in Gedit geared to
ReStructuredText headings.

In Emacs's ‘rst-mode’, I have the usual bindings for ‘rst-forward-section’
and ‘rst-backward-section’.
I find Emacs a very good tool for editing reST documents.

In Jed's rst-mode, there are navigating-by-section functions, too.
Besides this, there is also the "navigator": a buffer that lists the
sections headings and links them to the section headings in the document.

Günter


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[TP]

Post by Ben Finney

But some of my documents are longer with ten or more section headings.
I'd like to be able to quickly jump from one section to the next, but
I don't see any type of navigator panel in Gedit geared to
ReStructuredText headings.

In Emacs's ‘rst-mode’, I have the usual bindings for ‘rst-forward-section’
and ‘rst-backward-section’.
I find Emacs a very good tool for editing reST documents.

And the rst-toc command (normally bound to C-c C-t C-t), displays a
table of contents buffer that can be used to navigate quickly to any
section.